E169 | From Depression to Elite Athletic Performance (w/ Fergus Crawley)

Fergus is a hybrid athlete and mental health advocate, known for world-first endurance feats including ultra marathons and extreme triathlon challenges. His upcoming Project TENacity will see him complete 10 Iron-distance triathlons in 10 cities over 10 days, marking 10 years since a suicide attempt and raising awareness for men's mental health.

Fergus' YouTube channel - https://www.youtube.com/@ferguscrawley95

Interviewed by Dr. Alex Curmi. Dr. Alex is a consultant psychiatrist and a UKCP registered psychotherapist in-training: alexcurmitherapy.com

Check out The Thinking Mind  on Substack: https://substack.com/@thinkingmindpodcast

If you would like to invite Alex to speak at your organisation please email alexcurmitherapy@gmail.com with "Speaking Enquiry" in the subject line.

Alex is not currently taking on new psychotherapy clients, if you are interested in working with Alex for focused behaviour change coaching , you can email - alexcurmitherapy@gmail.com with "Coaching" in the subject line.

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Transcript

Speaker: [00:00:00] Welcome back. I hope everyone had a wonderful Easter. As you know, we were on break last week. This week we're back and I'm so pleased to present our conversation with Fergus Crawley. Fergus is a hybrid athlete and a mental health advocate. Today we hear his story of what it was like to experience depression and his university is, and even a serious suicide attempt, and how he gradually recovered from that.

Went on to found his own successful YouTube channel and fitness platform. Now, he regularly takes part in extreme athletic events, attempting wild athletic feats. He's recently completed two Ironman triathlons in two days, and now he's training to complete 10 of these triathlons in 10 days, which is pretty wild to hear about.

Today. We discuss his story with mental health. The difficulties he's still facing now, how people can use action and behavioral change to overcome [00:01:00] serve doubt, the benefits of trying new things and much more. I'm also pleased to announce I now have a website up alex crummy therapy.com. There's a link in the description where you can see what I'm up to with regards to the podcast, the substack and the different services I offer.

Psychiatry, therapy, coaching, speaking. It can be a little bit confusing. It's all explained there. Alex Crummy therapy. Com. As always, thank you so much for listening. If you'd like to support the podcast, do share it with a friend, give us a rating or preferably a written review on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen.

And now here's our conversation with Fergus Crawley.

Thank you so much for joining me today. 

Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. 

Speaker: Coincidentally, last week we released an episode all about the new Louis through Manosphere documentary, [00:02:00] and when we were talking about that, we were thinking, gosh, wouldn't it be better to have a bit of a healthier model of masculinity that people could follow?

The people. That seemed to have huge followings, like the most dysfunctional people you could ask for. And in researching yourself for this, I was like this, this guy seems like a good bottle of masculinity. Have you watched the documentary? 

Speaker 2: I've not, no. Um. Mainly 'cause I'm very stretched at the moment and I'm, I'm, yeah, I've kind of, I'm kind of ignoring my friends' messages.

I've kind of got to the point of complete just blinkers on with training for a big charity event and, uh, just trying to protect my own wellbeing by focusing on what I need to focus on. I've seen snippets of, and heard reviews of, and being interested in the conclusions and my general consensus from. I guess people's opinions that I kind of take value from I've seen break it down is perhaps that showcasing the problem without presenting an alternative solution wasn't the best [00:03:00] framing of it.

And I've kind of been of the opinion for a while now that these caricature figures that are essentially very good at extracting. Money on false promises. They are good at that. I think that's one thing that we can, 

Speaker: yeah, 

Speaker 2: we can agree on. They, they, they are good at doing that, but it, it, it's preying on vulnerabilities and it's, it's all of the stuff that I'm sure the documentary covered, but I do believe as a society we have fallen a little bit short of providing an alternative.

So vilifying those characters is one part the issue, but not presenting an alternative solution is the other part that I think is being neglected and is actually quite difficult to understand. Where. An individual can have an impact on, because I think it's difficult to know how to talk about masculinity in the modern world without feeling you have to caveat everything, or you have to be mindful of not contravening any sort of social norms or societal understanding on it.

Because these terms have evolved. And whilst that's great in many ways, I think [00:04:00] it does make it difficult to. Feel like you belong, but very kind of you to think that I could in any way fill that model at all. Which is, which is not something, uh, it is what I'm hoping to do in some ways with the project I've got coming up, um, is providing a space for people to engage with the topic in a, in a, in a sort of community driven way.

Um, but I mean, I, I, I think there's a lot of elements of sort of the traditional notion of masculinity that are still very valuable. I think it's, it's all, it all comes down to is that, or is that not paired with emotional awareness? And the way that those traits and values then manifest, which can go in one direction or the other.

Um, but at the end of the day, I don't think it's a binary definition. I don't think what I, my, what I don't think, what my definition of it would be would necessarily have any meaning to anyone else unless they felt like they resonated with it. 

Speaker: Yeah. And when listening to your story, I definitely got the sense that there were aspects of.

Maybe a stereotyped form of [00:05:00] masculinity, which played a role in exacerbating some of the difficulties that you had. So I guess first it would be really great to hear, you know, a bit more about your story with your difficulties with your mental health and then how things improved for you. 

Speaker 2: Yep. So rugby player, growing up predominantly, but one thing I'm eternally grateful to my parents for my dad.

My dad was a professional cricketer and my mom was. Married to a professional cricket. So they both have seen the value of the network and the growth and the value that comes from sport. So any sport that Jamie and I want to try, Jamie and my brother growing up, we, we tried, so rugby was the main sport for me, but played cricket, athletics, golf, skateboarding, so anything more to try, my parents facilitated.

Um, even if it meant them driving long hours, early mornings or sitting in a car park, they didn't wanna be in on nice days, which my dad brought up the other day. Funnily enough. Um, that's, that's something I'm extremely grateful for, and I think that that was a big part of how everything's evolved at my end.

But what I will say at this point is during my upbringing, there was [00:06:00] no indoctrination into a certain definition of masculinity. There was no presentation of. This is what a man should be. It was never sort of imparted to me in a sort of explicit way, prescriptive way. Um, it was just formed by my surroundings.

So that's interesting to me because, uh, I had a very, very firm definition and belief, which ultimately became part of my downfall, but. It wasn't something that I could ascribe to. My dad said, this is what a man would be, or this teacher said this, or this rugby captain said this. It was nothing like that.

It was just formed by the environment in which I grew up in, which, mm-hmm. I guess a lot of things are, for a lot of us, rugby was a big focus for me until, uh, when was it? 20? End of 2013 or 2014, I can't remember. Oh, no. End. End of 2012 or start of 2013. Can't remember around then. One too many concussions in a short space of time meant that I was told he can't play rugby anymore.

That's, that's that buddy. And I thought, oh, hang on. Right. [00:07:00] Okay. Huge part of my life, my entire social community, my structure and routine all week that is gone. How do I, how do I figure this one out? What 

Speaker: now? 

Speaker 2: So, uh, what I'm really pleased with myself for doing though, is, is at that age, which would've been 17 or 18, I did very quickly highlight, okay, there's a void here.

And you need to find a way to fill it. Otherwise you're gonna feel pretty, meaning was pretty fast. Which I think back on, I think that was quite a, quite a emotionally mature place to be in. Um. I filled that void with self-driven health and fitness, so to speak. So training for the sake of training and got on the bike, started running in the treadmill, um, started running outdoors and continued lifting in the gym as if I was gonna go back to rugby at some point.

'cause that'd been a big part of my development. 

Speaker: Mm-hmm. 

Speaker 2: I just kind of fell in love with the linear progression that came with that development because it was quite neatly aligned with the linear progression that came with. The work that I was putting into the exams that I was working towards, and yeah, my life became [00:08:00] very linear.

This was about the time where I discovered an understanding of macronutrients and food and calories. So I suddenly felt very in control of. Myself in a way I hadn't done previously. 'cause I went from controlling my own training and my outputs in terms of physical and mental wellbeing. I, I, I got to manipulate what those stresses were and what those led to.

I then supported that with a better understanding of food and I started to see, oh, if I eat this amount, I start to look this way and start to perform this way. And I managed to set that framework to give me a really, really good structure for my exams. Ironically didn't get into university I was trying to get into, which was, uh, Oxford at the time.

I put all my eggs in that basket, didn't get in. And, uh, but it taught me a lot along, along the way. I was very focused on that goal and I designed my life around that. So the first big bump in the road, well, second big bump in the road after the rugby was not get getting into the university that I kind of 

Speaker: set your heart on, 

Speaker 2: allocated all of my focus to.

Um, and that, that wasn't a huge knock. It was a bit of a bump, but it wasn't, it wasn't [00:09:00] a huge knock. Um. So I ended up going to Durham, which is the graveyard for Oxbridge students as, uh, as I'm sure everyone will, will laugh at and agree and potentially, 

Speaker: well, I learned this today. I'm, I'm not from the uk so there are some things I'm still learning, even though I've lived here for 10 years.

But this is something new I learned today. Yeah, 

Speaker 2: it's, uh, it's very common. It's, uh, I'd say most of my friends from Durham were in the same boat as me, but I, I'd never visited Dorin before going. I, um, I, I'd never even been to the town. I didn't know much about the university. I was, I was kind of just told, go to the best university you can.

That's available to you 'cause, 'cause generally speaking on in a cv, they'll look at the name of the university before they look at anything else. And I kind of drank that Kool-Aid, so to speak. And I don't think that is necessarily true, by the way. I disagree with my teachers on that. I now understand.

They probably said that because they could report on that for the board of directors or the committees that were maybe looking at how many candidates got into whatever Russell Group University. That's a conversation for another time. I very quickly found that the [00:10:00] drive and work ethic that I had at school, that sort of framework that I designed to, to really get the best outta myself, wasn't particularly compatible with first year at university.

Um, I felt pretty lost. I felt pretty meaningless. I felt a bit misguided. I got dealt a bad hand with sort of the accommodation I was in. Didn't make any friends in that setting. Lovely people, don't get me wrong, but didn't really connect with anyone at a, at a personal level. The sport that I was doing at the time was power lifting.

There was no power lifting or weightlifting facility available to non-performance sport athletes. So that was rugby and hockey at the time. So you didn't get access to the high quality facilities unless you were in those first teams. Um, and I chose to study theology and religion. As my academic discipline, as a way of improving my odds to get into Oxford, not as the subject that I actually wanted to study.

Not 

out 

Speaker: of a deep spiritual interest. 

Speaker 2: I, I did, I did, I studied, I studied the subject a level and I liked it, but I think ultimately the course material was less about. [00:11:00] The, I was interested in religious influence on culture and society and sort of the more historical allegorical side of, of, of Christian impact on the uk.

That, that's kind of where my interests were. But it very quickly became the philosophy of religion, which to any philosophers of religion listening, I apologize, but it just, to me felt like a bit of a. Male, uh, male genitalia measuring contest over who could say the same thing in the most convoluted way possible.

Uh, and then I was reading that to deconvolute it, to then re convolute it in my own words. So. Didn't really connect with anyone in that as well. 'cause we didn't have particularly, so all credit to Durham, the, the course I was on, they had a really, really high percentage of contingent of Scripture Union members as part of that course.

So if you were a part of that community, it was a fantastic course to be on because you were with those people. But that wasn't my community. So sort of the three components of where you'd normally make connections at university fell flat on their face and [00:12:00] quickly, I, I think the, the, the, the control that I had developed.

In my last couple of years at school that I, it's funny to think about this. I, I don't think I've ever been as in control of my life and as quote unquote locked in as I was then my, I was so indestructable. It was, it was a really, I, I've, I've been yearning to be that focused ever since. Uh, I've never been able to regain it, but we get older and responsibilities increase.

But I, I got so used to that and, and. Very quickly started to feel like, because I couldn't apply that to the setting that I was in, that maybe I was failing. Maybe I'd made a mistake, maybe I'd done something wrong. Maybe I'd made a poor judgment call. Maybe people were judging me for that. And this spiral of thought started to begin where for whatever reason, my understanding of masculinity and success, I guess more importantly as downstream of that started to make me.

Insular rather than [00:13:00] honest about how I interpreted my situation. So rather than viewing it what it was, which was, look, there's a couple of things that put you in this position that didn't go your way. You didn't go to the university you wanted to go to, you didn't study the course you wanted to go to.

You can no longer play rugby. That's not ideal. No. But what can you do? How can you manipulate this? Whereas I kind of quite quickly just, I dunno, just, just, I took my foot off the gas in terms of trying to find solutions because. I felt like I'd been hard done by, or made a mistake and slowly but surely started to become a little bit envious of my friends.

That, and I never genuinely thought of it this way, but in my mind, the, the way I'd been frame everything been framed to me is, goes to the best university camp possible. So friends at quote unquote lesser universities doing vocational degrees. I was like, they've got this right and I've got this wrong. I feel like an idiot.

I, I believe the wrong, the wrong thing here. And. That started to make me feel foolish and it started to just fuel this fire of you can't let anyone know that you are feeling [00:14:00] this way and that you feel like you've failed and that you're not having a great time. 'cause on the surface, everyone else was having a great time.

So why are you not? What have you done wrong? 

Speaker: What were you worried would happen if you did reach out and say, you know, listen, I'm having a tough time. Maybe I've made a mistake. What do you remember what you were worried would happen? 

Speaker 2: I don't think there was anything specific other than the, the fear that I would be letting down expectations.

Mm-hmm. But that was probably being fueled by the fact that I was perpetuating that narrative internally on a day-to-day basis by letting down my own expectations. Mm-hmm. But what I realize now and realize pretty quickly afterwards was that. Those expectations were based on a false reality and could only really be realized once I actually arrived at university.

So whatever expectations I had, they're kind of irrelevant until you arrive in reality, because I had no experience of what it was gonna be. I hadn't even visited the city so foolish of me to have expectations. But my main concern was, yeah, being judged as failing or falling short, or not being the [00:15:00] person people believe that I could be, which.

Wasn't, it's never been egotistically driven, per se. I've never, I've never really done things for the sake of other people. I've always been quite good at that. But I am very driven. I'm very ambitious. And if I say I'm gonna do something or I believe that I can do something, that, that's something that I will measure myself against.

Because it's kind of a question of, did you do the work or did you do, did, did you do the work or didn't you? Is kind of the question I ask myself in any setting. Mm-hmm. And my fear, I guess, was that. Did I do the work? I get this right with my decision making. The answer in my mind was, no. So therefore people go, oh, what an idiot.

You got it wrong. And from there, long, long story short for this section, really things just started to unravel and get worse and worse over the next 18 months or so. I was faced with the decision of, I made friends in about December of first year at university, and by the time I've made friends with them.

They had all signed on accommodation for second year. It's a [00:16:00] crazy system in the uk, and I was therefore faced with the choice of do I live alone in private accommodation in second year in Durham, or do I go and live in Newcastle as a neighboring city with friends from Edinburgh that I knew from growing up?

I chose the latter because the thought of being. The guy that lived alone when everybody else is living with their friends was, again, another bit of a judgment point. And, and truth be told, I just felt only just being around people was something I missed. So I chose that. And to start with that was useful.

I had access to better gyms. I had access to more people that I knew it was a more vibrant place to be. But that was just a, that was just a plaster over the wound, so to speak, a, a bandaid, um, for any American listeners and. I, I, I was just very unfulfilled. Training was the constant that I had. I was power lifting at the time I was competing, and that, that was something that didn't go away.

But slowly but surely, I just, I, I felt pretty apathetic about the course that I was doing. I was drinking more than I used [00:17:00] to. I was, I was just doing things for the sake of doing them, whereas I've always been very fulfillment and ambition driven and. It, it, it just got worse and worse. And I just got more and more self-critical, more and more self-destructive and more and more against the idea of letting people know that I was feeling the way that I was.

And there was a big layer of guilt as well, whereby, uh, listen, I had a great upbringing. Parents still together, as I said, could play every sport I wanted growing up because they saw the value in that and jumped through hoops for it. Got on with my brother, had a roof over my head, could afford food. All of these amazing things, but I.

Felt the way that I did. So I felt very guilty about that. 'cause it sure in my head it was, surely there is someone much worse off than you are. Stop being a wet wipe is kind of the narrative. 

Speaker: So not, so not only, not only were you falling short of your expectations, which it sounds like were pretty like rigid, pretty static, but you didn't even allow yourself your own suffering.

The fact that your suffering is also a sign [00:18:00] of weakness and how dare you suffer compared to all the other people in the world. 

Speaker 2: Correct. Correct. So it was a real self-fulfilling prophecy of of, of unhappiness to be honest. Um, what's interesting is training allowed me to suffer for much longer. 

Speaker: Hmm, that's interesting.

Speaker 2: So I've never quite been sure as to whether I think that's a good thing or a bad thing. 'cause it was a coping mechanism that allowed me to suffer for longer. 

Speaker: Um, in silence by yourself. 

Speaker 2: Whereas if I hadn't had that coping mechanism, I would've got to probably the conclusion that I got to sooner. So again, six and two threes really.

But I'm very glad I had training and that was still a part of my life, and it was a good indicator for me as to when things started to get worse, because if you'd asked me up until 2016 if mental health was a real thing, I would've said, Nope. It's a made up thing that people can use as a way of avoiding responsibility.

Is depression real? No, it's an excuse for weak people. And then it [00:19:00] started to affect me physically and I realized, ah, you're quite wrong on this one. Um, so then again, I felt even more foolish at the fact that I got that wrong and that I essentially, I got myself into this position, couldn't lift weights at the gym that I'd normally be able to do routinely.

Wasn't sleeping well, wasn't eating well, energy was low, just, just everything was just, I was just in a real malaise of unhappiness. Um, I was depressed, which is retrospectively me diagnosed, but at the time it was just me being pathetic and weak in my head. That's how I framed it and got to the point where I just felt so lonely, so isolated, like such a failure that, yeah, unfortunately I decided that the.

The only way I could confront the situation I put myself in was to, to leave it behind. Um, mm-hmm. So, attempted suicide in May of 2016. And I think what's, what's scariest about that is that I don't think, well, no, I, [00:20:00] I, I, I know that I didn't rationalize that as an attempt at death, but more an attempt at peace.

So. There wasn't much thought to the family and friends I was leaving behind. There wasn't much thought to any of that, which is really quite intimidating and scary still, even now with a rational brain. That I was so desperate for a sense of peace and a moment of, I dunno, just a break from the sort of noise in my head.

And the, yeah. And the criticism of it all was uh, 

Speaker: the emotional pain. 

Speaker 2: Yeah. Somehow managed to rationalize not being here anymore is just a bit of a pause button rather than a stop button, so to speak. And I came around from that attempt, thankfully. And the first feeling. I had was kind of anger at the fact that the one initiative I'd taken to change my position in life had failed in, in, in, in that sense.

Um, obviously that's a huge success in the long run, but in the time I was framing [00:21:00] it as failure and I felt even more useless because you've done nothing. You've made things worse. Now you've tried something and even that hasn't worked. You lots of profanities that followed and it was another six months before I.

Actually opened up to my parents about it, um, because a couple of days after the suicide attempt, I got a message from a friend saying, I'm getting a puppy from this litter next week you in. And I think he was just, he was just joking around being like, look at this cute litter of puppies. And I thought, right.

Okay. Companionship, yeah. Routine. It basically, the, the message in the back of my mind just gave me the glimmer of hope and it, it just gave me so many little boxes that I could tick quickly. So borrowed some money from Andy, who was the one that sent me the message. Cleared out my student loan and, and, and, uh, and, and purchased everything I need.

And just thought, you know, I'm just gonna figure this out as I go, because in my head it was companionship, routine, structure, a sense of belonging, sense of purpose, responsibility, and a, a sort of companion with a heartbeat. All ticked all of these things that been missing. And probably a part of me as well, something I could confide in that couldn't [00:22:00] judge me in my head or couldn't, couldn't talk back cheaper 

Speaker: than a therapist, probably.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Could. Well, yeah. With French Bulldogs, but this was before the boom in pricing in them. Um, so yeah, probably, I'd say, um, then he helped me sort of get back onto my feet and become more comfortable with finding a bit of purpose. Again, th that summer, I, I, I, I, I had to. Good period of time and then ended up living with the friends that I made at the end of first year, in third year.

Had a good third year. And from from there everything was good. Again, 2018 I started to see glimmers whilst I was working in London, had just finished a grad scheme, started to see glimmers of similar thought patterns appearing, and the instinct was to again, brush them under the carpet and just move on and just, I dunno, stiff up a lip it, but.

Realized that I've been in this situation before and that I needed to find a source of fulfillment 'cause that currently wasn't there. And that's where I committed to my first [00:23:00] charity endurance project and started posting on social media and kind of here we are, however many years, what is it? Eight years later?

Bloody hell. Wow. That's, uh, almost, almost eight years later. It'll be eight years in August. 

Speaker: It's pretty crazy. It sounds, it sounds like the, your recovery overall was pretty linear, like pretty straightforward once you had connection back in your life, something to take care of, uh, and you were meeting some of your deeper needs, getting some more fulfillment.

Sounds like the depression pretty much lifted. What was it in fact that linear? 

Speaker 2: It was, in many ways, and I think this, this is part of my frustration with the, the first year at uni is that. It was just such a soft landing for me from being such an ambitious young person that I think essentially I, I, I was, if you put me into a situation where I could have, um, really excelled and really worked and really learned and really been tested, I think I would've thrived.

But that's just not what I experienced. And I think that really put me backwards. 'cause I hadn't prepared for anything else. So in doing so, I lost my [00:24:00] sense of fulfillment. I lost my sense of purpose. And, but I didn't have the emotional awareness to highlight that these, these are the boxes you're currently missing.

It just felt like a bit of an overwhelming down, so to speak. But I think, yeah, my, my recovery has been pretty linear and for me, fortunately, I can now look at my own mental wellbeing fairly linearly in terms of what am I missing that's making me feel this way? Or what is the contributing factor to why I'm feeling this way?

Or what is the cumulative fatigue that is maybe making me behave in this way, whatever it might be. Obviously I'm not always completely lasered in on being accountable to that, but that's where my wife, Erin's great, and she sees it quite linearly in, in me now as well. Um, but yeah, fortunately for me, I, that whole experience redefined my notion of success, which is great.

And now the primary contributing factor to that notion is fulfillment. And most of what I do is fulfilling and I have creative control over, which [00:25:00] is. Which means I can, I can pivot if something's not serving me in the best way possible. It also makes me realize that I can't ever do a, yeah, I'm, I am volatile in the sense that if you put me in a job that I disliked, I'd be pretty unhappy pretty quickly.

'cause I'd lose my sense of purpose and fulfillment. But I, I, I'm an intent. I've got an intense personality. I'm intensely ambitious and intensely driven. I've got, yeah, I like to, I like to work my ass off for things. I enjoy seeing things. Come to life. I enjoy learning, I enjoy iterating. I enjoy failing now, I think is the key detail.

Um, and yeah, fortunately for me, recovery was fairly linear. It did get a big kick up the ass from a French bulldog to start with. I think it would've taken me a long, a, a lot longer to fill those boxes had it not been for him. Um, he's 10 now, which is crazy. Um, and. I think, I think that's where I'm proud of myself for in 2018 when I felt like I was going backwards, [00:26:00] I sort of worked back a little bit to go, okay, what are the things that are making you feel this way?

Right? Fill those gaps that should probably fix it. And they did, which is great. So it makes me feel in control again, but also means that I'm aware of the things that can negatively impact my mental wellbeing. 

Speaker: I think your story is very useful to hear because. I think it's important for people to understand that for most people, most of the time, mental health difficulties are gonna be about understanding what your needs are, your psychological needs, physical needs, and how your needs are not being met.

That means that not everyone needs a psychiatrist. Not everyone needs a therapist. Yes, these can be useful tools, but ultimately, for the most part, they're tools in service of. Figuring out what are my needs and how can I meet them? And then there's plenty of other tools that can help as well. And I, I do worry that sometimes we can medicalize mental health problems excessively, uh, in our culture and not [00:27:00] actually get in touch with who am I?

Like, what do I care about, what do I want out of life? And then how can I take the practical steps to getting it and hearing your story and your recovery. Sounds like you're very like lasered in, I'm ambitious. I want to be my own boss. I want to have creative control, and this is how I'm gonna get it.

Most people could really do with that awareness. Obviously people will be, have different levels of ambition that have different wants and needs, but just the knowing yourself is so important. That's what really comes through when I hear you speak. 

Speaker 2: No, I agree and I think it's something I'm very pleased to have, I guess, done the hard yards on.

It makes me kind of fortunate in some ways or, or grateful that I've gone through the experience that I have as kind of a fast tracking of, of, of the learnings that are needed to set me up for how I interact with life moving forwards. I, I, I think everything you described there is increasingly difficult to allocate the discovery time to in the modern world.

Mm-hmm. And there are more and more things [00:28:00] that create noise around it for us. So what I mean by that is that I can maybe FactCheck on this, but I Disposable income versus hours worked. I'm sure the equation used to be slightly. Better. Um, I, I mean, it, it did used to be much better. The disposable income side of things definitely was the hours worked equation, again, depends on the industry.

I don't wanna generalize, but 

Speaker: I certainly think people are introspecting less. Even, even if people have time. We now have the devices to fill our, to, to fill out brains with noise all the time. 

Speaker 2: There's, there's less time available to go exploring the things that make you tick and make you fulfilled and fire you up and get you ambitious outside of work and family.

Those things are more expensive. And the key detail is we have super cube computers in our pocket that can fill those voids in the little time that we do have. So if you go from having availability to discover these things about yourself to having no allocation to that at all, [00:29:00] then it's very difficult to know how to get yourself out of a place where you feel like you're missing something.

If you dunno what's missing. And I think that's why I operate in the way that I do now and why I'm such a big proponent of people sort of. Committing to big scary goals with their training or with their personal life, whatever it might be, because by committing to something that intrigues you or sparks curiosity in you, you are going to develop yourself as a person.

In the process of getting to the start line or the beginning of that, whatever it might be, the outcome is kind of in my mind, irrelevant. Yeah. Yeah. It's what you learn along the way that's most important and I think. Too many people not, not to get prescriptive in any way, but I think too many people don't give themselves enough credit for how much control they can have over their own mental wellbeing.

But it's difficult to know where to allocate your, the finite resources of money, time, energy, to, I dunno, [00:30:00] trying five aside football on a Wednesday night. Or going to a pottery class on a Sunday. I don't wanna trivialize it in any way, but you're not gonna know what makes you tick and what gives you fulfillment and what fills certain voids unless you try things that might fill them.

Speaker: No, absolutely. I'm a huge advocate of trying something new as a means of introspection because it's, I guess one thing that I picked up on hearing your story as well, that you were kind of trapped in like a mental prison, like a very common, rigid. Which, you know, I talk to people. It was 

Speaker 2: very, very dogmatic is the way I tend to describe it.

It was, it was almost rule based. Yeah, 

Speaker: very dogmatic. And this is a predicament many, many people are in. And one way to get yourself out of your that predicament is to throw yourself in a novel situation. Ideally something that's out your comfort zone, because it forces your mind, especially your unconscious mind, to reexamine your assumptions and your beliefs, particularly your beliefs about your own capacities and what is possible.

I'm a huge advocate of that. And for you, would you say your athletic events are your main [00:31:00] way of getting introspective, or do you do like more formal introspective things like say meditation or therapy or stuff like that? 

Speaker 2: They were until they fully became the job, so to speak. Um, the training is the events.

Yeah. I, I have moments in my training now where I get introspection, but training began for me as my allocated introspection. I don't have enough allocated introspection time these days. Um, and that's something that I'm trying to work on. There are changes in my life coming to facilitate that very soon.

Um, I dunno when this is coming out, but I, I'll be, it's, I'm, I've already said it on podcast. I'm moving to Spain. I, I'm moving to Spain because I feel like, uh, I, I, I'm in need of a change creatively. Inspirationally and my wife's always wanting to live somewhere other than Denver. She's always, she's always been here.

Um, and we feel like it's the right time for, for many different reasons to just go for that change, just for a little bit more of allocated time to, to think [00:32:00] about the future, to reflect on the past, to reflect on the current, wherever it might be. Whereas I feel, I don't feel like I'm in a rat race at all currently, but I just feel like I've got used to doing a lot of the same things in the same way and it's, it's got a bit stale for me.

And staleness, stifles creativity, creativity. Fuels introspection, but creativity also fuels the income of the business and the staff and everything as well. So there's the practical and there's the profound, so to speak, in that equation. And what I'm intimidated by is how much of an impact my intangible output is dependent.

I, I is, is relied upon in the sense that if I don't feel creative and I don't feel introspective and I feel a little bit flat, then that has a tangible impact on. Day-to-day existence. So I need to be able to, I need to get better at making time to, uh, to sit and not ruminate, but just, just reflect because tr [00:33:00] training, I'm often training, I'm often filming and thinking creatively as well, which means that it's, it's very rare.

A training session will give me what it originally gave me. Uh, but a trip up into the mountains or something like that is, is what, what does that for me? But the, probably the challenge at the moment is training volume is so high and work volume is so high. There is genuinely no time left to, to do any of that.

Um, because I can't allocate the drive north to the mountains. I can't allocate the, the four hours and the hills that is better spent on a bike, et cetera, et cetera. So that's a challenge I'm currently dealing with, but I, I, I feel like there's. There's a few voids in my existence that can be filled by a bit of a change in environment, change in scenery, change in weather, change in surroundings, people changing systems, um, and most importantly, structure and routines.

To allocate a bit more time to being more present with Erin Dogs myself, and being in a place [00:34:00] where. I'm less available to be distracted by the normal things that distract me, so to speak. 'cause I feel like whenever I try and create moments of peace for myself, they get nuked by someone sending me a teams message or whatever it might be, which is, we obviously part, part of the equation, but I, I, I've, I've, I've, I've audited what's serving me and what isn't, and I've assessed that there's a few things that I think I will benefit from massively to get the, this next evolution of me.

Firing in all cylinders, um, which is exciting. 

Speaker: I'm, I'm really starting to worry, looking at, you know, myself, people in my personal life, people I talk to professionally, I'm really starting to worry that workaholism, you know, what we now call hustle culture, but is really workaholism is becoming one of the most common ways that people, uh, avoid their feelings, maybe try and avoid introspection or dealing with, with the darker aspects of themselves.

Is this something you see much around you? You must hang out with a lot of [00:35:00] high performing athletes, content creators. Do. Do you see this pattern of people avoiding their feelings through, you know, intense, prolonged chronic work? 

Speaker 2: I do, but I think I'm fortunate in the sense that I, I, I, I'm of the opinion that worker holism.

Can become most negative when people are in an industry that creates money from money. I think given the way I make a living, the way the people I interact with in the team and most of the people I interact with in my industry, you are not monetizing money. You are monetizing behavioral change, growth knowledge.

Introspection in a way and, and movement. And I think by virtue of doing those things well, you have to detach from just work output in to, to, otherwise you are not gonna do those [00:36:00] things well and you won't make the progress. 

Speaker: Mm-hmm. 

Speaker 2: The interesting thing for me is that training, nothing ruins training more than filming it.

Nothing ruins the video more than the training. So that's the challenge for me is that I've got this real balance of how do I. One, enjoy the creative output of what I'm creating. Two, how does it serve a purpose for the business? And three, how do I make sure that I also execute this training session as planned?

So, I, I, I wouldn't say I, I wouldn't say I'm a, um, I wouldn't say I'm a workaholic. I'd say I'm a forward motion aholic. I like to feel like things are moving forward. I don't in any way engage, understand, nor have interest in a static life. And some people do. And in many ways I envy that because I place a huge amount of pressure on myself.

My brain's very fast paced and sometimes it's quite, quite difficult to deal with. But when, when I'm, when I am fulfilled and doing things that I love, it's great and all of it and that's fantastic. But I think, um, it. A lot [00:37:00] of people that come to work with us at Omnia are people that work hard, care about their family, and they're looking for an outlet that can give them a sense of fulfillment and inspiration away from that.

So we work, we, we work with great people that are actively seeking a third space, so to speak. The challenge I have is that I don't have, what was my third space is now intertwined with, with the job. Yeah. So that, that, that's something I've, I've highlighted a few years ago, but I haven't yet created a solution for.

Look, that's part of the, the sort of relocation considerations is, uh, I don't have my visa yet, so actually I should probably speak carefully. Just, just, uh, just if it all blows on my face, that'd be unfortunate. But I think, yeah, I, I've got so used to doing things in, in such a way that I think a bit of a, not tear it all down and start again, but a just a bit of a refresh, a bit of a change of pace, a bit of a change of scenery to rebuild some sort of structural foundations.

Even things like this office, like the first, the first 18 months that we had, this office that I'm in now. I existed the, I was here at seven. I left at seven. [00:38:00] I trained seven to late in the morning. I trained seven to late in the evening, and I was in the, I was in the office all day. I went to the same place for lunch every day.

It was very rigid, very routine. So when I come here now, and I don't, I don't need to do that. I still kind of default into these patterns through familiarity. So I feel like I need to be in a less familiar setting to just ask myself the questions. Okay, what's the work you enjoy doing the most? What's the work that creates the most value?

What's the work that you can hand over to staff members that will do it better than you? And then most importantly, when do you not need to commercialize the things that you're doing that you enjoy so you can just enjoy them? Whereas right now everything feels like a big old blend and there are some days where that feels overwhelming and I feel like a sort of not, not a prisoner of mine creation match your act dramatic.

But I feel like I've taken on too much to even be able to give myself the space to hit pause for my own mental wellbeing. Um. That's where the smallest of things can derail me. Like a delayed flight or where they can just, the whole plan and the whole week can fall apart. Right? This, this is [00:39:00] precarious.

Speaker: The, the taking on too much is definitely, that's a feeling I can relate to. I will let you know how I get on with regards to addressing my workload. I mean, only, only your comment of forward motion. I think it's really important for people to understand. Humans love forward motion in general. Some people are gonna be more ambitious and they're gonna love it more or need it more.

But I was discussing this with an evolutionary psychologist I had on the podcast recently. You know, one of the most powerful drivers, uh, for pleasure is dopamine. And one of the most powerful drivers for dopamine release is forward motion. This sense that we're moving towards our goal, and by the way, that's why people do cocaine because cocaine.

It's just a way of artificially creating that, you know, activating those very same reward pathways, which is why cocaine doesn't make people necessarily feel euphoric. Cocaine makes people feel like they're in progress towards a goal. That's why people get very excited on it, and they'll talk about their plans that they're gonna make, but [00:40:00] one way or another, we need this sensation in our lives, and when we don't, it's actually one of the main drivers of the opposite, which is, you know, melancholy.

Depression, actually, melancholy has a function. Um, but I think most people aren't in your predicament where they're pushing themselves too hard. I think most people feel like they don't have an avenue to move forward. They don't have an avenue to like meet their desires. I think 

Speaker 2: I, I, I agree and I think this is where I'd, well, I'll say it now, but I, I want to formulate a better case on this specific argument from my point of view, which is I think.

The work required to discover the things that bring us the most happiness, joy, and fulfillment are the hard yards. I think a lot of the methods and mechanisms that have traditionally allowed us to get there are somewhat, not entirely being demonized a little bit. If we look at the Manosphere documentary, for example, [00:41:00] so Man Manosphere documentary is.

There were elements of what I think some of these guys say, which is, look, be in good shape, eat well. There's elements of what they say that are valid universally, and those things are somewhat now being thrown into this is part of their narrative. Whereas objectively that information can be separated and then the horrible and terrible and exploitive things they say, or as a separate argument entirely.

But I think being socially uncomfortable. Being physically uncomfortable, taking risks, being able to learn, being willing to try new things, being willing to be alone. Being willing to be away from your phone for however long it might be, whatever it might be. I think all of these things are becoming more and more, not, not, not quite, not demonized is too powerful a word, but they're, they're, they're on the spectrum towards demonization where I think 

Speaker: they're being seen as intolerable.

Speaker 2: Yes. Where I think because there's caricatures of those things out there that exist. Paul Saladino, the Carnivore md [00:42:00] that's saying, you can only eat meat. Don't eat this. The word nutrition's being ridiculed. You've then got people like me doing stupid physical things where physical training's ridiculed.

'cause then there's so much of a gap between someone doing nothing and what I'm doing, and I think that takes power away from people. Rather than giving them tools that they can equip themselves with to start going on that discovery mission, to figure out what gives them fulfillment, what drives them, what away from work, away from family is gonna put a smile on their face and is gonna remove that melancholy.

Look, you might try some things that might yield nothing. That doesn't mean that you've hit a brick wall, that it's game over. It just means you've not hit the right thing yet. I'm sure when people were mining for minerals and awes in the past, if they gave up after the first couple of stone chips came off the wall, they wouldn't have found what they were looking for.

And it's kind of the same analogy. And yeah, what I don't like binary thinking, I don't think I, I don't like generalization. I think far too much is being sensationalized and generalized. In the modern world, and I think that [00:43:00] training fitness is a very low hanging fruit for people to take a bit more control over their day to day in terms of quick wins on.

Mm-hmm. Tuesday, last week I ran this far on Tuesday. This week I ran this far. This is further than that. Therefore, big tick, doesn't matter what happened to work that day. Doesn't matter what else happened. You have gone further. You have done better. However you frame it, it, it's a measurable win and life has pretty much lived in the gray for the most of it.

I do think there's more and more narratives online that are almost comfortable izing. I, I dunno what the word is, it, it's almost encouraging the avoidance of things that people find uncomfortable. But I believe, and this is probably where this, this is circling right back to the sort of elements of traditional masculinity that were referenced at the start.

I, I think there's value in, depending on how they manifest, whereby I think. Doing some uncomfortable things to learn things about yourself will ultimately make you more comfortable. So it's short-term pain, long-term gain, but I think we are becoming more and more desensitized to the value [00:44:00] of short-term pain because we have so many readily available comforts to us.

And I think that is damaging our heads as much as it is bodies. And I'm a huge advocate that, that that's, that's why I, I, I believe training fitness is one of the lowest hanging fruits that people have available to them. In the modern world to be able to see a measurable win that can then spiral into.

I'm gonna sign up to this social club, I'm gonna sign up to this thing. I'm gonna do that thing that scares me. I'm gonna go solo traveling. It, it, it's, it's not about getting to the top of the ladder a straightaway. It's about putting your hand on the first rung and Yeah. I, I don't want, like, I, I think even in America, fitness is becoming politicized in some ways, a little bit, which I, I can't understand.

Um, 

Speaker: it's very strange. 

Speaker 2: And that's something I, I, I'm, yeah, it's something I don't advocate for. I, I, it's essentially, I think these things are self-discovery mechanisms. That everybody can interact with in different ways. What for me might be Ironman training, might be playing squash for somebody else.

That's fine. Both are, both are inherently valuable if they serve the person. And yeah, I think allocating the [00:45:00] time to be a little bit uncomfortable in an otherwise optimized for comfort life. 'cause I think that's what the modern world is, is the convenience of everything versus the past is, is insane when you think about it.

And I think that's where I don't want people to believe that. They cannot have an impact on their own mental wellbeing, and it then falls into the trap that you referenced where it becomes overly medicalized because I think people have a lot more control over it than they give themselves credit for.

But there are narratives and there are feedback mechanisms that are potentially feeding that narrative that you don't have any control over this. You just need to accept that you are the victim here and ignore all those things that people are saying can help. Because I think that fitness might not work for the other, for somebody.

It could be sewing. Again, I don't care what people choose. Fitness works for me. It has done, um, but there's great fulfillment in running a business as well, and I think that's similar mechanisms, but I wouldn't have been able to find the confidence to start a business if I hadn't have built the confidence from the training that gave [00:46:00] me all of that introspection leading up to that point.

So there's a lot there. But yeah, I, I need to formulate exactly how I want to deliver that argument better for the future, because I do think. I do think there's that there are mechanisms that can support people's mental health that are being lumped into other things that if we generalize those other things are not great.

That doesn't mean the individual components are therefore all suddenly not great themselves. It's kind of the, the, the dosage makes the poison sort of, sort of situation. 

Speaker: Yeah. I, I call it the economics of discomfort. Like what you find generally in life is there's either gonna be the stuff which cause a little bit of discomfort upfront, but then some satisfaction and some positive emotion later.

Like going to the gym is a good example or eating correctly, or there's the opposite. There's the stuff that feels really good. Right now, but probably has a downstream effect of making you feel lethargic or low in mood. That's like eating a [00:47:00] pizza or just watching TV and not going to the gym. So it's really about like when do you want to feel uncomfortable?

Do you want to feel uncomfortable a little bit now? They're much better. Or do you want to feel uncomfortable much later and delay, it's almost like delaying discomfort into the future. 

Speaker 2: Yeah. I, I think delayed gratification has become very, uh, very unpopular. But again, if we look at the, if we look at the Manosphere documentary, they are selling the dream of instant gratification.

And that's part of the issue is that it's that narratives being fed, um, and phones, media. Pace of life feeds an instant gratification feedback loop. Whereas it's difficult to think, if I start this thing today, what am I gonna look like? Or how am I gonna behave in a year? You think, oh, I don't want, I don't care about a year.

What's gonna, how am I gonna be next Monday? And I think that one of my favorite phrases is, you, you, you people overestimate what they can achieve in a week and underestimate what they can achieve in a year. And 

Speaker: yeah, 

Speaker 2: I, I try and I don't gamify [00:48:00] my mental wellbeing, but I do. Try and look at everything with as much emotional objectivity as I possibly can so that I can highlight what inputs serve slash support me versus what inputs don't.

And look, things like alcohol don't really serve me, but there are times that I will allocate drinking 27 beers at Stag do because I'll have a lot of fun. Fair enough. And that price is worth paying. But on a day to day, week to week basis, I know that that's gonna have a negative impact on my mental health.

'cause it isn't balanced against the fact that. I'm in a new location, seeing friends I haven't seen in a while, all these things, whereas I've, I've only earned the right to make that decision through practice and assessment. I'm very analytical and I think I, yeah, I feel like anything, anything that creates an emotional spike or could impact my mental wellbeing, I try and 

Speaker: mm-hmm.

Speaker 2: Make a mental note of, okay, that's made you feel a certain way. How do we process that? And look, I, I'll swing, I'll swing in and out of. Good moments, bad [00:49:00] moments doesn't mean I'm immune to being depressed again in the future. It doesn't mean I'm immune. I've solved all my problems by any means. I'm a volatile and intense person.

My brain, I, I, I think, uh, undiagnosed, A DHD is probably, probably probably on the cards, but there's enough people on LinkedIn talking about that, so you don't need to throw me in the mix as well. Um, but I'm aware of that, and I think being aware is a powerful thing in the first place because it gives you a bit more control over, okay, well what do I do next?

Speaker: Just in the couple of minutes we have left. You know, when people are starting from zero, say, whether it's in fitness or health or even social life, stuff like that, they're often plagued by self-doubt. What advice do you, would you give to someone who is starting from starting as a beginner? Maybe they're plagued by self-doubt.

How should they start to approach that? 

Speaker 2: So Primitively speaking doubt is a protective mechanism that we no longer have as much requirement for, because. I mean, for the most part, we're not being hunted by predators. [00:50:00] I'd like to think, um, if anyone is listening, listening is being hunted by a predator, then please reach out to someone that can help as I'd, I'd like to think there's facility is available, but that primitive mechanism is there to, to send a clear signals your brain that is, this is, there's a risk here.

And I firmly believe in the same way that nerves are a manifestation of excitement in the present. Because you haven't yet experienced the outcome in the future, doubt is a manifestation of growth in the present because you haven't yet experienced the outcome in the future. And the feeling is disguised in the moment because it's new, it's novel, it's inherent.

Risk has inherent risk and doubt is actually, therefore, a good thing because it signals that you're aligned if if if you didn't care about something, you wouldn't be. Doubtful because there's, there's no, there's no risk. Whereas feeling doubt is good because it shows that you are, [00:51:00] one, you've highlighted something that you care about.

Two, you are committing to something that is going to challenge you and therefore initiate growth. And three means that you can achieve an outcome that gives you. Another brick on the stacking of evidence that can support momentum toolbox in your mental wellbeing tool belt, just evidence experience that you can allocate to future endeavors, whatever that might be.

Personal life training events, professional life can be anything and I think, I think don't be afraid to try and reflect on the translatability of all of these things across purposes as well. 'cause I have taken more from. Being in the bin, training wise and in events that I can carry into a personal and a professional setting than I have from personal professional settings.

Speaker: Honestly, the transferability is huge and it's a mistake people make 'cause they feel like, why should I do this unless I'm [00:52:00] gonna get paid now or get recognition now? But you can do stuff in a box by yourself and learn so much from it that you can immediately take into the real world. 

Speaker 2: We, um, we were reviewing some CVS recently and going back to the, my, my potential despondency with the university system in the uk, but that's again, a conversation another time.

There were a few people that we'd seen that done a hundred Ks or a hundred miles, and essentially as soon as we saw that they went into the maybe pile, because you can't do that. Unless you have a tolerance for discomfort and an ability to wrestle with yourself on problem solving and not just throw the toys at the pram and, and can it when things get tough and.

They will have gone on a journey that will have taught 'em some lessons that they can then apply into a work setting. And I, I found it very interesting that all of us instinctively saw that and that ticked more boxes than whatever the education background was. We are a, we are a training business, which is the caveat I'd add there.

We're not hiring management consultants, so it's slightly, slightly different. But just, just [00:53:00] having done those things and knowing what comes outta the process, you cannot get to the start line of an event like that unless you have audited your day to day, your structures, your systems. Your work life, your personal life to get to the outcome.

And the process of doing that is a bit of a tidying up effect or a, a pressure testing that in theory will make an individual better in practice. If you don't enjoy it, it's not for you. Then well done. You've learned a valuable lesson, move on to the next thing, give it a go, and uh, 

Speaker: and you've probably still learned a ton of skills anyway.

If you've tried hard at something, you've definitely learned a ton of skills. 

Speaker 2: Exactly. Exactly. And I, I, I, I have conversations with people about YouTube regularly. 'cause that's my main platform. And I have people come to me and say, oh, how do I grow on YouTube? Wanna do this, wanna do that? I go, okay, I will only answer these questions if you can tell me here and now, will you commit to uploading one video every single week for the next 52 weeks?

If the answer's not yes, then there's no real merit in me telling you anything because you have to do. You have to show up every week. Iterate, iterate, [00:54:00] iterate. But most importantly, you have to go from video concept idea to scripting it, filming it, getting the camera settings right, inputting it into a editing software, chopping up this way, fixing the audio there, exporting that, realizing you've mixed up the codex in each one, and then you need to do it all over again.

Uploading that to a platform. Thinking of a title, thinking of a thumbnail, uploading it. Go again. Once a week. Once a week. Once a week is right, is right, is right because. The worst thing that can happen is after one year, you'll have developed an incredibly wide array of skills that you've can use in different settings.

Best thing that can happen, it's become a business vehicle or it's something you really enjoy or it's changed your life in terms of career. So it's a win-win, whatever, whatever the outcome. But I, I always ask that question first. 'cause I think it's, it, it is the doubt, uncertainty, or is the doubt.

Misalignment, and I think if the doubt's uncertainty, then you can take the leap. If the doubt's alignment related, then it's probably worth considering something else. So I always ask that question as a [00:55:00] qualifier to see what's the thing that's stopping you from going, going in on this. Because if you expect in a year's time all of your problems to be solved, then you're doing this for the wrong reasons.

If you say, I want to learn and develop myself over a year period of time and see what happens. Then go for it. 

Speaker: It's a very useful example and you can apply that framework you just outlined for YouTube to anything. You know, go to the gym for a year, go out and socialize for a year, go work on your career for a year.

Makes a lot of sense. I'm sure people can get a lot from that to just go back and listen to that and really apply it. I know you're outta time, but um, thanks so much for joining me. Where can people go to find out more about your work? 

Speaker 2: So just at Fergus Crawley on Instagram and TikTok, I think that is, I'm Fergus Crawley, 95 on YouTube or just search Fergus Crawley on YouTube.

And then Omni Performance is the coaching platform that we use, which is essentially one-to-one coaching for anyone that's looking to develop their strength and endurance training, but become a more well-rounded and self-development focused version of [00:56:00] themselves. 

Speaker: Fergus, thanks so much. 

Speaker 2: No, thank you for having me.

Enjoyed it.