E118 - When do Couples need Therapy? (w/ Mary Morgan)

Mary Morgan is an individual and couples psychoanalyst, Fellow of the British Psychoanalytical Society and Honorary Member of the Polish Society for Psychoanalytic Psychotherapy. She has written extensively in the field of couple psychoanalysis and teaches and supervises internationally. She is the author of ‘A Couple State of Mind: Psychoanalysis of Couples and the Tavistock Relationships Model’ .

In this episode we discuss:

 - How and why couples commonly run into problems

- Typical difficulties with communication people have 

- The impact of the "romantic ideal" on relationships in the West

- How trends like non-monogamy impact modern couples 

- Red flags a relationship is in trobule 

- Green flags couples therapy is progressing well

Interviewed by Dr. Alex Curmi. Dr. Alex is a consultant psychiatrist and a UKCP registered psychotherapist in-training.

If you would like to invite Alex to speak at your organisation please email alexcurmitherapy@gmail.com with "Speaking Enquiry" in the subject line.

Alex is not currently taking on new psychotherapy clients, if you are interested in working with Alex for focused behaviour change coaching , you can email - alexcurmitherapy@gmail.com with "Coaching" in the subject line.

Give feedback here - thinkingmindpodcast@gmail.com - 
Follow us here: Twitter @thinkingmindpod Instagram @thinkingmindpodcast Tiktok - @thinking.mind.podcast 

Transcript

[00:00:00] Today we're revisiting the enigma that is romantic relationships, and with us to continue that conversation is Mary Morgan. Mary Morgan is a psychoanalyst and couples therapist. She's a fellow of the British Psychoanalytical Society. Until recently, Mary was the reader in couples psychoanalysis and head of the master's program in couples psychoanalytic psychotherapy at the Tavistock Relationship Center.

She has written extensively in the field of psychoanalysis and teaches and supervisors internationally. She's the author of a couples state of mind, psychoanalysis of couples, and she has two upcoming books, couple Relations and Introduction and Love, its Meaning and Exploration in Couples Therapy. Today we discussed what drew her to working with couples in therapy.

I. Some of the common problems people run into in their everyday lives, in their relationships, problems with communication, red flags, their relationship is in trouble. Green flags that couples therapy seems to be working. [00:01:00] Some of the more modern problems in dating and relationships, particularly more recent cultural trends in the West, such as that of non-monogamy and how that might be impacting modern couples.

We discussed a little bit how relationship therapy works, some of the key lessons Mary's learned in her career, some key relationship myths she'd like to bust and much more. This is The Thinking Mind podcast. A podcast all about psychiatry, psychotherapy, psychology, and self development. If you like it, do leave a review, give us a rating, share with a friend, or if you want to support the podcast further, check out some of the links in the description.

Thanks for listening, and here's today's conversation with Mary Morgan.

Thank you so much for spending some time with me today. Pleasure, Alex. Thank you for asking me. Uh, as the audience will know, I practice [00:02:00] individual therapy. I've always been fascinated by couples therapy and I'm, I'm so curious, what do you work with individuals and couples and what drew you to specialize in couples therapy?

I do work with individuals as well as couples. 'cause I'm, I'm trained as a psychoanalyst, but actually I trained as a couple therapist first at Tavistock relationships that came outta from practicing as a social worker to start with working in family centers. Where we're encountering couples whose children were at risk, and we tried to get the whole family in to work with them, and I tended to specialize in working with the parental couple.

What, what do you think attracted you to couples therapy? What drew you to that specialization? That's such a good question. I don't really know the answer to that. I mean, I do think that relationships are central. It's kind of, you know, they're at the center of the family, aren't they? Whatever kind of family one has, you know, [00:03:00] the, the couple are central to that in a way.

It's kind of what makes the world go round. It's about, it's more than about a kind of couple relationships I think that attracted me. And it, it's really about kind of relating, you know, capacity to relate to another person. So it might not be in a couple relationship, but with friends, colleagues, families, and things can break down, can't they?

In all those different arenas. It's striking how much the quality of our relationship. Or, or our most central relationships determine the quality of our lives. Indeed, everything can be kind of going well for us financially, career wise. We can have a roof of our roof over our heads, uh, and yet if there's something wrong with our major relationships, it's so striking how much that affects us.

Perhaps more than we even might predict that it would. And I suppose this is something that you see in your work commonly. I do. And I think, you know, by pushing it that way, you are touching on something quite important actually, Alex, [00:04:00] which is about the sort of containing function of a relationship for individuals that you know, that if, if you are in a relationship, which develops over time, builds over time, it becomes a sort of a resource for the individuals within it.

They feel that they've got something sort of around them that can have a containing function and that can help the individuals in all sorts of ways. What are the most common problems? You find that people that couples present to therapy with the kind of ordinary problems that couples bring are things like problems in communication and time together.

'cause they don't have enough time or they feel so tired when it gets to the evening. You know, once they finished working, put the children to bed and sit down. They just feel that there's no kind of space really for communicating. The, the problem with that is that then in order to sort of relax instead of talking to together, [00:05:00] people kind of turn to their phones or their computers.

A lot of couples complain that their partner's got more of a relationship with their phone than with with them. And so I think that's one of the big things is sort of, you know, not having time or not making time to, to talk. Mm-hmm. Something I've noticed is that. People don't tend to view their relationships as something that needs maintenance.

Like most people, most things people prize. Like if someone has a car they really love or their home or their career, there's a recognition that in order for those things to continue to be satisfying, they need some kind of regular input and regular maintenance. Whereas what seems, I'm curious on your, on your take on this, but with couples, you have this period of falling in love like this six months to, let's say two years of falling in love, where all the positive feelings seem to come [00:06:00] really automatically, and therefore the investment comes really automatically.

And then slowly but surely, many couples with time, because they don't take this maintenance approach, they fall into this trap of feeling like, okay, the relationship is less satisfying. Unconsciously feeling like it should be satisfying automatically, like a commodity as opposed to an investment. I don't.

Is this something that you've encountered? Absolutely. And there's so much in what you're saying actually, Alex. Yes. A relationship definitely needs to be taken care of and to be, you know, maintained and repaired along the way. The trouble is, I think that quite a lot of couples don't think of themselves as having a relationship in that sense.

They tend to think of, it's me in relation to you and if you sort of did this or didn't do this, then that would make me happy, kind of thing. They don't kind of think in terms of [00:07:00] what they're creating between them and as a kind of entity, A third entity, if you like their relationship. Which, you know, does need taken care of.

And as you say, sort of at the beginning, couples don't really need to think about this too much because there's, you know, what I call the kind of in love stage where everything seems to be working, sex is great and there aren't too many kind of problems, but that does change over time. And then for many couples, I suppose at that point, they do become aware of there's this relationship and we need to take care of it.

But for others, they might feel everything's gone wrong. You know, we are not feeling the same way anymore. What's wrong with our relationship? There's nothing wrong with it actually. But it, it changes. Right. Like the, the relationship doesn't feel good anymore, therefore something's wrong with the relationship.

And I suppose many people seem to come to the conclusion of, oh, I've just picked the wrong person and end up just [00:08:00] dating serially and never really getting into a sustained relationship. I don't know whether the relationship, whether they might feel the relationship's gone wrong, they might feel that, but something sort of changes in that they start to perceive each other less idealistically, more and more real realistically.

So you sort of get closer to who the, the real other person is. And that can be difficult. I think it was George Elliot who said that marriage is awful in the nearness that it brings. And there's something about, you know, being close with another person that brings you up against the difficult things about them, as well as the things that, you know, you fell in love with.

At that point, you know, 18 months to two years or, or whatever, something starts to change. That has to be dealt with. Yeah. And I, and I suppose it also brings you close to the things that might not be so great about yourself, which your partner [00:09:00] then reflects back at you. Exactly. So it's also, you know, yawn, nearness to them.

You know, they see these sort of aspects of yourself and that that can be difficult. Do you think there's any truth to the idea? Like on in pop psychology circles on Instagram and places like that, you'll often find these harsh truths like, you know, you might attract or fall in love with, or get into a relationship with precisely the kind of person that might, uh, reactivate some of your more difficult early life experiences.

I suppose this is what Freud would've called the repetition compulsion. In your experience, is there truth to this or is it a bit bit more of a, a simplistic aphorism, which we should, shouldn't necessarily take too seriously? I think there is truth to it. I mean, one, one of the things that, you know, part of the kind of theory really, it's like ionic theory about couple interaction, is that the adult couple relationship is an opportunity to rework [00:10:00] difficulties from earlier relationships.

So perhaps in the primary relationship with the mother or the whoever the parent is, or you know, things that have gone wrong in, in the sort of early childhood might be brought into this current relationship. And they might either be repeated in the way that Freud was talking about. So for example, somebody might get together with someone who rejects them all the time and because they were rejected earlier and they just keep repeating that experience.

So there's no real development. But alternatively, they might find that they could, they get into a relationship where some of these early difficulties could be worked through. Maybe there's an expectation of being rejected, but actually they find with their current sort of partner, then they're not rejected and then they can sort of change their internal kind of [00:11:00] preconceptions or, you know, maybe they sort of had a, a sort of angry parent and they, they do kind of get together with someone else who's angry, but maybe the person that they get together with manages their anger in a constructive way, not a destructive way.

So it, it means that something can change for that individual. In other words, there there is potentially something therapeutic about an adult couple relationship. We can kind of grow within them, you know, potentially. That's good to know. 'cause it feels like there's so much in the culture and I don't know if you've observed this.

There seems to be so much in the culture and and common like TV shows and films that are really downplaying the importance of potential value of, and really the optimism of a long-term monogamous relationship. And I don't know if this is just a response to sort of mid 20th century norms, which went unquestioned for a long time and now we're seeing kind of a cultural backlash.[00:12:00] 

But there seems to be a real pessimism about long-term monogamous relationships at the moment. I think that's true, but I do think there are many long-term monogamous relationships that thrive. But I think you are right that they're also, those kinds of relationships are being questioned particularly by young people.

And you know, young people I think are experimenting much more, especially in Western cultures, not in all cultures, of course. They're thinking about their sexual identity, gender, what kind of relationship they want to to be in. And you know, some of them are rejecting heteronormativity and monogamy, you know, and choosing other ways or trying other ways.

And of course, you know, to couple therapists, this is, this is, it's very interesting. It's also quite challenging because then one has to think about what is a couple, you know, and it's not, you know, this straightforward [00:13:00] thing that it might have been 50 years ago. Well, what do you think is like a really good, what's a good working definition of a couple or a relationship?

And I suppose this is probably something you've covered in, in your book, couple's state of mind, but what do you think is a good definition of like a healthy couple or healthy relationship people can use? I think that one of the things that's, that couples struggle with is managing the other separateness and difference.

Although, you know, when you form a couple, that's a kind of intimate bond and people come together through shared values and things they both identify with. They also, particularly after this time, you were talking about after sort of could be six months for 18 months or two years, they discover, you know, the other's difference and otherness from them.

And that's really challenging. But if you can manage that, if you can sort of accept that not everybody thinks like me and there's things about you that I [00:14:00] don't like maybe understand or get, but you are different from me. If you can manage that, then something more creative can happen between the, the two people.

You know, couples particularly once they have children, kind of get into the state of mind where they feel it's really important that we're on the same page, you know? But they can't always be on the same page, you know? And when one parent sees the other one really not managing with a little child. They feel they can't do anything because they've got to be on the same page.

Whereas in fact, what would be most helpful would be if the other parent could say, look, can I help or should we try doing this differently? Or, you know, I think this might be a better idea. That's a more kind of creative couple relating, but obviously some, you know, it's difficult too. So I guess by being on the same page in this context, you're meaning, uh, you do things the way I think that they are should be done, which I think is probably the bet the better way than you [00:15:00] think they should be done.

So there's kind of a enforcement of one partner's values on the other end. You could see how that could be like quite, um, oppressive, whereas you're talking about more of a. Collaborative, creative problem solving, something like that. Yeah, that's a good way of putting it. Yeah, definitely. And, and I suppose so much of this is about communication.

Communication seems like a sort of light, airy, fairy kind of topic, and yet it's so important. It's, I, I personally believe it's so easy to get communication wrong, even with high amounts of training. And of course, most people get zero training and communication. And I don't think about this just in terms of intimate relationships, but also friendships and again, work relationships.

Where where do you think, uh, people tend to go wrong in their communication? You'll rise, of course, that communication can sound like a, an airy fairy, [00:16:00] you know, a lovely thing that's kind of communicate. But actually it is quite difficult, you know, it's quite difficult to properly listen to another person.

I think one of the efficacious things about all forms of psychotherapy is that experience of being properly listened to by somebody, but in, in relationships, we're not always very good at that. And, and it can be, I think for couples quite hard, really listening to the other one if, if one doesn't feel listened to oneself.

So kind of, why should I listen to you because you're not really hearing me. But also, of course, we get into this area that we've just been talking about, about finding, you know, by, by listening to another, you're getting to know the other as another, you know, with different views, different ideas about things that might either kind of put you in conflict or you might feel that, that [00:17:00] they, they sort of annihilate your own ideas, you know, if I take on your ideas, then what about mine?

As if, as if there's not enough room for two separate. Ideas. But you know, again, I think you know where that is possible and sometimes couples need help with this, then that could, could lead to something really creative. Something I think about, like a very big tension I find in individual therapy is the kind of striking the balance between acceptance and sort of striving for growth as it were.

And this is really hard even in individual therapy. Like to what extent should an individual in therapy dealing with certain problems sh to what extent should they lean towards accepting themselves to extent should they sort of be trying challenging themselves to try and actualize their potential.

And I think this becomes even more complicated in couples where, 'cause I can see, you know, one partner encouraging [00:18:00] another to grow and reach their potential to be a good thing. I can imagine a version of that that's more, uh, again, imposing. Similarly acceptance, you know, one partner accepting the other generally sounds like a really good thing.

Uh, and yet the kind of, there's a sense of acceptance that can also be a little bit stagnating. It's the dark side of acceptance. How do you manage these sorts of tensions in couples work? I can imagine some relationship therapists being like, oh, it's all about the acceptance. Like one partner should just accept the other.

I can imagine a different therapist thinking, no, it's, you know, the couples should to the best of their abilities, be encouraging each other to, to improve in some way. And I can imagine a balance of both. Where do you sit with this? Does this tension arise for you in your work? It does arise, but I think what's important here, and I do this is kind of the central theme of, of the, my book, the couple's state of mind, is that the couple therapist's position is trying to understand [00:19:00] the relationship and therefore, you know how I would understand what you've just described.

Is that in the couple relationship there is a tension between defensiveness, if you like and development, you know, and one partner is, is is taking the more sort of defensive position of no change. That's except how we are or I am. And the other one is pushing for some development, but they're both kind of involved in it.

And that's the, that's the struggle in the relationship. So, so typically one partner will take the more like, let's change things position and one will say that let's more like keep things as the opposition. That's what you find? Yes. I mean, one of the, one of the important theories I think of in couples psychoanalysis or psychotherapy.

Is the idea of a couple projective system, meaning that each partner is projecting spit off parts of [00:20:00] themselves into the other. So it might be that, that that one partner in a way could carry the more developmental aspects for each of them and that it is actually important to both of them. But the other one is kind of putting the brakes on for both of them.

Um, and it's something they're sort of involved in together. Yeah, and I think that's like, I think what you're saying is true because it's all about the dynamic. Like you can imagine one individual in relation to this, this to one person. They might be the super challenging one. If they left that relationship and uh, entered the relationship with someone who is even more challenging than them, then they might be the one taking the more accepting position.

Like, I've often found this really striking how, you know, so much of our personality. So much of our emphasized personalities relative to who we happen to be relating to in any one time. Like I might often [00:21:00] find in relation to one person, oh, I'm this, the more the charismatic side comes out in relation to a different person, small, the submissive side.

So I guess this is kind of what we're hinting at with this. It is, but I think, you know, when we think about unconscious partner choice, which is very related to a couple projected system, you know, it might be that unconsciously each partner chooses the other because they're more comfortable with disowned aspects of the self.

So I might choose to get together with someone who perhaps does push things forward in a way that I really want to be able to do, but I feel too anxious about it. So I'm gonna, you know, benefit from them doing that for us. But I might also try and hold them back a bit as well because of my own anxieties.

Yeah. So. I think it is author fair about a sort of projector system. But what's interesting about what you are saying, Alex, is that you, you know, you feel that that can, those kind of mini systems can [00:22:00] change depending on what relationship you are in with different friends and colleagues and so on. I think so, because it makes to, I like to think about things from an evolutionary perspective as well.

And so you start to think about things in this context quite pragmatically and about like what would be adaptive and what's not. And I think what's really adaptive about human beings is our ability to collaborate and work as a team. That being the case, I think in any team you find yourself in, it makes sense to emphasize certain traits and de-emphasize others.

So if you're, for example, you know, trapped on a desert island with someone who's like very, very agent. It kind of makes sense for them to handle the age ancientness and the decision making and 'cause they, they have that covered and you might be able to handle other aspects and, and so on and so forth with any personality trait you can think of.

So I think human relating [00:23:00] has this weird way of like, okay, let's bring out, you know, Alex can cover this aspect of, of, of what needs to be done. Mary can cover this aspect and together, you know, they kind of form a whole and then it, and then it can shift quite fluidly depending on who happens to be making up the team, if you know what I mean.

That, that is an example of a relationship working really well, isn't it? And also the, the very last thing that you said that maybe it might need to change for some reason and can the couple kind of swap positions if necessary? You know, maybe there'd been some sort of, sort of crisis of some kind was children or work or health or something.

And what was the way the couple were functioning before? Each, you know, Alex carrying this and Mary carrying this might need to be reconfigured to deal with that current situation. And if the couple can do that, that would also be a, a sign I think of a healthy relationship. That kind of flexibility. [00:24:00] Yeah, just like, just like a sign of individual psychological health.

Is that person being able to think more flexibly a sign of relationship health is a relationship. Being able to be flexible and accommodate to different disasters as we know, disasters and crises, uh, unfold all the time. I mean, I'm curious, like what, what are some signs. You know, that people might be able to pick up on in their everyday lives that like, actually this relationship does need some working on maybe something like entering into the realm of couples therapy would be useful.

Are there any sort of obvious red flags? Perhaps a good one to talk about is about arguing, because you know, there's different kinds of arguing aren't there? And some, I mean for a couple, don't argue ever that's a problem. I think that's a red flag. Yeah, that's a red flag. But they can argue have, you know, quite robust arguments and they can feel productive and they lead to change in the couple and, you know, [00:25:00] different behaviors and progress in the relationship if you like.

But there are other couples that report arguing more, like kind of bickering that goes on and on and on. It's, it's repetitive and it doesn't get anywhere and I think those couples often need help to understand what's going on. And often I think behind or underneath the bickering, and it's not so conscious, that's why they might need to come and get help is hate, you know, some, some kind of hateful feeling, a normal kind of hatred actually.

But that's gone sort of underground. I mean, a good example of this, I think is, is when, when a couple have young child have children and say it's a heterosexual couple and the husband feels excluded from the, the mother and the baby. And all of a sudden, you know, our relationship has gone and now, now you're enough with a baby, and what about [00:26:00] me?

You know? But of course the husband can't really express that because it's not a really rational feeling or it's not even, you know, he, he feels, I can't really say that. That's the most unhelpful thing to say. And also, you know, he loves the baby too. So these feelings get kind of pushed away, but then the couple gets a bit sort of.

Isolated from each other. Probably sex stops often does when there's young children and, and then when the children are a bit older and there's a bit more space and maybe they start school that sort of age five or something. The couple realize we're not having, we're not having sex anymore, that we don't even feel like it anymore.

And, and I think this kind of thing, the bickering and sometimes this other problem of no sex, which I sort of morphed into, is to do with sort of unresolved hatred that's sort of gone underground. Resentment. Resentments, yeah, exactly. Which, which haven't been sort of [00:27:00] talked about or, or worked through, but then have a sort of insidious effect on the relationship, which could be something like bickering, it could be loss of sexual desire, it could be other things.

But it doesn't make any sense to the couple, you know, 'cause they're saying we don't want to be doing this bickering. It's just kind of ruining our relationship. Or we both want to have, get back to having sex like we did when we got together. But neither of us wants to, you know? Yeah. There's sort of difficulties that, that feel kind of beyond their control in a way.

And, and again, I guess they're unconsciously thinking the sex, the romance, the attraction, the fun if you like, should be automatic because it was automatic in the beginning. So why isn't it automatic now? Yeah, exactly. And that's, that's partly because I think in kind of western cultures we're up against this sort of the, the romantic ideal, you know, of a relationship.

And it's sort of there in all the media, isn't it? And the things that you can read and everything as if this is how a [00:28:00] relationship should be, that sort of, that that fun and feeling and love should carry on forever. And so people might judge themselves against this kind of ideal. So do you think people are often shooting for this ideal, therefore shooting for like an un unrealistic target?

Yes. But it, you know, it can sound a bit depressing, can't it? The sort of, you know, the, the loss of the romantic ideal, that kind of disillusionment. You know, what I would say is that, that if that can be managed, then it often leads to a kind of deeper kind of love and it, and that deeper love isn't a kind of boring love, you know, it can have fun and enjoyment and romantic elements to it, but it's not defined by the romantic ideal.

Yes. How, how, how new is this romantic ideal? Like, how recent is this? And I think it's, it's always a good moment when people find out, oh, our romance isn't that, isn't that old [00:29:00] actually. You kind of think unconsciously romance is all this time itself, but as a cultural thing. It's relatively new. How recent is it?

It is fairly new. I think we tend to think this is what it's been like, you know, forever or we can do, but actually it wasn't like that was it. So probably a hundred years ago even that people, you know, married for or were married off for particular reasons, love wasn't seen as the main, as particularly important.

It was more to do with security and other factors that came into it. But it's certainly very present now, isn't it? Very present. I think very, uh, quite can be quite damaging because if you think that's what you're shooting for, which is basically what I mean is effortless, romantic love, that's kind of automatic in the way that it is when you just start dating again.

Not something you have to continually invest in. Not something that's ever unpleasant, then it's totally unrealistic and you're, you're [00:30:00] doomed to feel like every relationship is either a failure or going to be a failure at some point in a way, I feel quite, I've read like a lot of, I've read and watched a lot of anecdote stories of people in other cultures who actually do end up together via things like arranged marriage or marriage at a very young age after not a lot of time dating.

And, uh, it's quite striking how much, you know, often those couples will, will report, this is anecdotal, but we report quite high, um, rates of satisfaction in their marriage and to the western mind. That's so counterintuitive. 'cause we think like, how can it be, you know, we, we prioritize choice. Freedom, the ability to choose one person out of, you know, a a pool of potential eligible bachelors or bachelorettes.

How could it be that, you know, your parents deciding for you is a good idea? And it just goes to show that our intuitions aren't [00:31:00] necessarily aligned on how to on, on how best to find like a long, long-term good partner. And often the roots to that can be quite, can be a lot more mysterious than we think.

I think that's right. And, you know, listening to you talk, Alex, it just sort of reminds me of how many different conceptualizations of love there is. You know, we tend to think of it, um, within our own kind of cultural framework, don't we? But there are many different cultural frameworks and when I was talking to you earlier, I was telling you about a, a book that hopefully will come out later this year on love.

It's called Love, it's meaning an expiration in couple therapy. And we were very interested in, in the different experiences couples have of love and, and different meanings and diverse meanings. Actually thinking about arranged marriages, for example, I think that [00:32:00] there's a, there can be a very different idea of sort of what love is and a sense of, in some arranged marriages, say within particular religious communities, there is a, a feeling of doing this for the community.

You know, we're kind of, it's not just the two of us. We're, we're forming this bond as part of a bigger thing really, that involves more than us, like joining together, the two families joining together, the two families, you know, trusting in the judgment of the, of the parents and the people that have, have sort of arranged the, the marriage.

And, and then there is a, a sort of. Quite a commitment to making that relationship work. 'cause it's quite difficult if it doesn't work, there's a kind of signing up to we're go, we're going to kind of make this work. Now that might be hard to kind of conceive of, but from the kind of romantic sort of [00:33:00] idea.

But actually I think it's true that some of those relationships can work very well, but they start in a different way and they've got a different idea about the meaning of love actually. Yeah. And it, it's, I guess it's, it's partly a bit alienating to the Western mind 'cause we think of it as contrived and we don't like to think of our life choices are as contrived in the West.

I feel like in modern times, unconsciously, we want everything to be like our choice and organically fulfilling. And I think this could be a problem once people are in a relationship and they're trying to improve it. I think they often feel the things that they need to do to improve it are too contrived.

So like going to couples therapy, it's too artificial. Or even some of the things a couple's therapist might recommend. I'm curious if you would recommend things like scheduling date nights for instance or something. I've seen relationship coaches recommend [00:34:00] like, you know, code off a period of time in your calendar where the purpose is for the two people to communicate or be romantic or some combination.

And that to a lot of people feels like, oh, if, if I feel I have to do something on purpose, then it's not real somehow. And yet those practices seem to work. That, is that the kind of thing you recommend? Or, and similarly do you find this opposition to this, this, this artificiality of some of these interventions?

I don't know because I don't work in that way, you know, because as a, a Psycholytic couple, there's different kinds of couple therapists perhaps we should say. Yeah. And some are perhaps more behavioral and offering exercises to do or things to, to the couple to try out. But, but a psychoanalytic couple therapist wouldn't be doing it in that kind of way.

They might be interested in why the couple don't have any time together and what's, what does that mean and what's going on sort of more unconsciously. So there, there's different approaches. [00:35:00] But the other thing that I was thinking as you, you spoke was about couple therapists feeling, no, sorry. Couples feeling, you know, they don't necessarily want someone else involved in their kind of private couple relationship.

And the idea of coming from for couple therapy. To talk about your kind of private relationship with someone else might feel very difficult. And I think that is an issue and I think that does put couples off coming for help. And as a couple therapist, I think you have to find a sort of the right distance with a couple.

You can't be too removed from them, but also you don't want to intrude into their relationship. So that's something to kind of learn and, and, and find out with each couple really where they feel comfortable to, to sort of allow the therapist into their relationship. Because you see, you are an individual therapist, aren't you, Alex?

Yes. Yeah. [00:36:00] So the problem with couple therapy is that you don't know what the partner's gonna talk about and, and if, and if you want them to talk about that now or ever, you know, with a therapist. So it can feel very sort of exposing, actually coming as a couple. And shaming as well, and sort of all sorts of difficult feelings can be stir up.

Bringing your relationship therapy. I'm really curious from the outside looking in, it looks so challenging. Individual therapy is challenging, couples therapy looks incredibly challenging. What do you find most tricky about it? Good question. I mean, I think that's, that, that's sort of that, I think what I've just described as one of the difficulties is kind of getting that relate, the position of the therapist in the right place.

So it's, it's, you're close enough to the couple, but not too intrusive. But then on the other hand, I say that, and I think this can move around a bit in a, in a session and over sessions and you know, I think the therapist usually [00:37:00] can judge that. I think I, the most difficult situations probably are couples that don't listen to each other at all, talk over each other.

Where there's quite, there's various forms of what I would call narcissistic forms of relating where one partner sort of rather takes over the other. Sometimes there's a kind of particular narcissistic fit where there's somebody who's more kind of narcissistically, self-assured, and the other partner has quite a poor developed sense of self.

And that sort of self-assuredness in the narcissistic partner might have drawn the other one to them. And at the beginning of the relationship, they might have really relied on the other thought. The other one knows more than them. They're the one that sort of has a better grasp on what a relationship is.

But then the other partner who's got a poorer sense of self starts to develop. Maybe they have [00:38:00] individual therapy and they want to sort of be themselves in the relationship. And the other one kind of can't bear it because the other ones kind of. Being more separate from them feels such a threat. So these are very difficult couples actually to, to work with.

And of course, the therapist also has a separate state of mind. So anything that the therapist says that doesn't sort of accord with, with the more narcissistic partner, if you like, can also feel threatening. So this, this can be quite a difficult situation to work with, I think. And then what, what are the, what are like the green flags in copper's therapy?

How do you know things are starting to go well? Okay, so that's a nice question. That's a really nice question. And I, I think, and you know, I, I think this is where the development of a couple state of mind is so important because to start [00:39:00] with, it's the, it's the approach the couple therapist takes. So the couple therapist.

Is focusing, even though the couple therapist might work with each individual all the time, she's trying to use that to understand what's happening between the couple. Then over time, if the therapy's going well, the couple start to internalize a couple's state of mind into their relationship, and so they come to the next session and they say, oh, we had this terrible row on Friday night.

But then Saturday morning we had a conversation where I said to my partner, I, you know, I think when I said that thing to you, that stirred up that thing that always stirs up in you, and then you did that thing to me and we got going on this thing that we do in our relationship. That's music to my ears because I realized that they're starting to develop that capacity for reflection is another way of putting it to be able to [00:40:00] reflect on what happens in their relationship.

Of course this becomes a really important resource in a couple's relationship because even when things break down between them, things go wrong. They have horrible arguments or stop talking to each other. They know that there is a capacity somewhere in their relationship that they can find where they're able to process this together and when, when this starts to happen, I think the couple, it's a green flag for the therapist because she can start to think, okay, at some point I can remove myself from this relationship.

They don't need me anymore because they've got it, you know, they've got what I represented inside their relationship. So it's kind of the beginning of the end. You might carry on for another six months together or whatever, consolidating that kind of experience. So they're able to internalize, I. The ability to think not just about themselves, but [00:41:00] about the state of a relation of the relationship as a separate entity, the common patterns they're falling into, and how those patterns are like surreptitiously blocking them from sort of getting their needs met.

Yeah. Great summary, Alex. Yeah. Uh, you, you mentioned non-monogamy, earlier polyamory. This is obviously becoming more popular nowadays. I'm not a psychoanalyst. If I had to put on my most cynical psychoanalytic hat, I might think, oh, mono non-monogamy. Could this be kind of a defense against perhaps the fears or the pressures of a monogamous relationship?

What, what, do you think this is ever the case or what are your views on non-monogamy? Yeah, I mean, you're right. These are kind of contemporary issues. I think I. Open relationships tended to be more in with male same sex relationships, but now heterosexual couples are also opening up [00:42:00] their relationships and I think for different reasons actually.

Sometimes, sometimes the, the couple themselves might say, look, there's something problematic in our relationship. Sex has become boring or something. Let's see if, you know, having sex outside the relationship might enliven our couple relationship. So it's, you know, that those couples themselves might kind of say it's, it's not exactly defensive, but it's sort of, it might be a solution to a difficulty that they have.

Of course it can all go badly wrong. I think this is the problem that there can be u usually in open relationships as I understand them, and I'm not an expert, but there's usually the, the couple work out some sort of rules about how they're gonna have those relationships. And one of them tends to be that there shouldn't be, there should be emotional fidelity.

[00:43:00] So, you know, neither partner should get sort of emotionally involved with anybody else. It's more a sexual encounter. But of course, sometimes they do get emotionally involved and that's when it, you know, it can be really difficult, particularly if they feel Yeah. How, how, how is it possible to control such a thing from happening?

I don't think it is, but I think people try to do that, you know, but I suppose at that point, the couple might decide, look, we, this is not working for us or something, you know, so maybe this is not an answer, you know, so it's not like they. Always have to have an open relationship. They might decide we'll try it and see if it helps us, works for us, enhances our relationship.

But if it doesn't, but of course sometimes there are these really difficult situations where somebody is very emotionally attached to somebody else and, and then it's a kind of crisis really for the primary couple. Yes. And I, I think as with any behavior, I would hesitate to make a blanket statement, you know, [00:44:00] they want to pursue this behavior because, fill in the blank.

I think it really depends on what position they're coming from. I, I can imagine some people going towards non-monogamy more as a defense. I can imagine other people just being more dispositionally predisposed to something like, um, non-monogamy and everything in between. So I suppose it depends on like what is, like, what is the reason you're going for it.

Are there any fears you're running away from, or is it more a positive thing that you're moving towards and what is your like relationship to that behavior? Exactly. It can be many things, not just that something's gone wrong. It, it could be, you know, a rejection of, you know, heteronormative relationships or, or just the idea of monogamy for heterosexual couples, you know, more about not wanting to be constricted by particular forms of relating and you know, so it can take many different forms really, [00:45:00] and work for some couples and not for, for others.

I mean, po polyamory I think is, is often kind of put together with open relationships, but I think it is quite a different sort of phenomena actually. And you know, it is sometimes about sexual relationships, sometimes not. Sometimes it is more about emotional. Relationships. So what, what's the main distinction between polyamory and open relationships?

I think in open relationships, there's, there's a kind of a central couple who are choosing as a couple. Usually it has to be really to open their relationship for various reasons. In polyamory, there might be a central couple, you know, but there might not be, there might be several couples, there might be several couples sort of living together or living apart.

Or there might be an individual who has relationships with many people who, who [00:46:00] never meet. It can take many forms. I think it's something that's kind of becoming more, how did somebody put it? It's becoming, you know, more of a phenomena, you know, it's, it's just, it's still working out what it is, but it's not becoming sort of, I.

More describable in a way, it's becoming more Yes, undescribable really. I mean really, I suppose this kind of a, a rejection against like clear definitions in some sense, or certainly a rejection of maybe the notion of like sacrifice or the notion of like delayed gratification or self restriction that is, you know, has been typical of marriage across history.

It's like we don't want to have prescribed norms. It's a rejection of that prescribed norms, perhaps. That's right. Yeah. So I think in that way it sort of resonates more with queer theory, which, you know, without going into that in detail, but it, which kind of rejects all these kind of constraints, I think on forms of [00:47:00] relating, sexual relating.

Yeah. The problem with that is, again, this is a problem of the West, is we, I we, we idealize freedom and we reject constraints. Without realizing that A, we can't really reject constraints. We can reject some constraints and some social constraints, but there are many, like there are fundamental realities of our existence that are constraining, sorry if I'm getting a bit self-indulgent, philosophical.

So there's some constraints that like just part of being alive and two, or be, we need constraints way more than we think we do. Again, in the west, we shirk them. We think, okay, we just don't need these constraints. Wouldn't life be better if, fill in the blank? But actually like many animals, we, we need constraints to keep us like a bit sane and a bit healthy and there seems to be something almost perverse about the amount of freedom we have.

I don't mean just like sexually, I mean even [00:48:00] non sexually perverse. That the amount of freedom and choice that we have seems to be making us less and less happy. I think that's probably right. And I think there's an off, you know, whatever in, obviously some people in in polyamorous relationships really sort of feel that that's what they want and benefit from, but there's all sorts of difficulties as well.

For example, sometimes they're hierarchical relationships and some people have more power in the, in the polyamory than other people do. There's also, as I understand it, you know, jealousy is really frowned upon, and that's the idea that you should kind of have joy in in other people's, your partner's pleasure.

But of course, what happens to jealousy, you know, from a psychoanalytic point of view, what does one do with those feelings? Really? You can't just magic them away, have them. No, exactly. Mm-hmm. And I think the thing that we haven't sort of perhaps touched on is, is, is children, you know, who, who are the couple in the.

Children and [00:49:00] the parents, you know, in this situation. Again, I think, you know, many polyamorous would argue that this can be managed well, maybe it can, maybe sometimes. It's quite confusing though, for children and, and certainly for couple therapists. It's sort of, you know, it is hard to kind of get one's head around sort of who, who the couple is really, you know, and, and it might be a problem of who you're working with.

Someone told me that, you know, they were expecting to see a couple once and four people turned up on the doorstep, you know, so it's some, it's challenging. It's challenging. Yeah. I think one, one thing that's inevitable is that if the more people involved in the relationship, the more complex it is and the more prone to instability it is.

I. That's not like a moral judgment. I think that's pretty straightforwardly factual, that the more, the more people like, [00:50:00] like two is more complicated than one, three is more complicated than two, and then that instability, if there are children involved is likely to affect them. Doesn't mean that children can't be raised healthily in a polyamorous situation, but it does mean in all likelihood that it's gonna be a little bit more complicated.

Hmm. Are there any kind of big relationship myths that you'd like to bust? Are there any, you know, people commonly will give that 2 cents about relationships in everyday life. Are there any common misconceptions which you're, you're dying to, to contradict? I think, I think perhaps one of the important ones, and we have touched on this, is that relationships aren't just about love.

They're also about hate. You know, that we have, we have the full range of feelings really, that come into. The intimate couple relationship and somehow or other, we have to make room for those feelings too. Doesn't mean, you [00:51:00] know, a disaster or catastrophe for catastrophe for the relationship. If there's something about your partner you really don't like or something they did that you hated, it doesn't mean that, but it's, it's part of it really.

So perhaps I am saying this is, you know, very different from a kind of romantic ideal. The other thing is that, and I think this is another difficult thing about relationships, is that, that we can ever kind of remain the same as who we were once we're in a relationship. Because I think by having that sort of closeness with another and allowing the other to affect us, we, we are changed.

And that's, that's. Challenging, but it's also a kind of developing thing. So it's, it is, people change over time. Being close to someone who is different and separate from us and really kind of taking them on board. [00:52:00] Challenges the self and means that we can't kind of go back to where we were before we were in that relationship.

I think some couples, some people want to, they kind of feel, you know, they want to, and, and I, I imagine as you're saying that, my reaction is I bet some people kind of allow themselves to be changed too much and some, some people are too resistant to being changed at all. Does that resonate with your experience?

Yes. When I was talking about that sort of, you know, that kind of narcissistic kind of coupling where one partner is very kind of certain and doesn't seize, you know, they don't need to change at all. The other one is, is too permeable to change, you know, too unable to hold a boundary around themselves. I think, yeah, that can be a real difficulty, I think.

So there can be that imbalance and maybe the work would be, you know, can the, can the more narcissistic [00:53:00] person allow themselves to be changed and change their worldview and maybe make some more compromise? And can the other partner develop themselves, assert themselves a bit more clearly, develop their own sort of value system, what they care about, and, and establish more kind of equilibrium in that way.

Yes, exactly. But they might need help to do that because I think what we're talking about can feel quite threatening, you know, to both partners, you know, or the, the partner who is developing might feel quite sort of fearful about how this is gonna go down with the other one. And the narcissistic partner, I know we're using kind of terms here, but let's say the more kind of self-assured partner can start to feel very threatened by the developing separateness of the other partner.

Right. To, to someone in that position. Separateness and boundaries feels very threatening to their sense of self, and then they can [00:54:00] overreact with anger and so on. Yeah. What, what are some, like the biggest, uh, epiphanies you've had about relationships sort of across your, your career as a couple's therapist?

What are some things that really surprised you about all of this? Obviously, you know, working with couples for as long as I have, it sort of, it challenges your idea about there being any one kind of couple if you like. You know, I come across, you know, very different ways of coupling and different ways of, of kind of.

Feeling happy as a couple, even though I think that there are some elements that are really important for all couples and you know, it's really important I think that we don't, as couple therapists sort of, that we're sort of don't in any way kind of impose our own beliefs about what a couple is on a couple, even though couples actually sometimes come asking for that, you know, consciously or unconsciously they're saying [00:55:00] tell us what it is to be a couple, how a couple's supposed to to be.

But I think our job is to try and help them discover the kind of couple they want to be and, you know, and to be less driven by unconscious factors that are directing the relationship in ways that are causing them unhappiness. Yeah. I always, I always felt like what really distinguished psychoanalysis was, psychoanalysis was never gonna tell you how to be.

Psychoanalysis job, and please correct me if you think I'm wrong about this, is that is to develop and refine your self-awareness, the different layers to your personality and what makes you, you, again, what, how early life experience may have, uh, affected that. And the, and therefore by reducing unconsciousness, allow you to make some choices and then your choices will be what they are.

But at least they're coming from a position of self-awareness rather than how [00:56:00] most people operate is, which is kind of a default to unconsciousness, more reflexive action if you like. Absolutely. You know, and in, in a way that kind of sums up, you know, what couples are often struggling with, they're kind of coming, they might not be saying this directly, but they're kind of saying, look, this isn't the kind of couple we want to be.

This is not the relationship we want to have. But for some reason we can't stop kind of behaving in this way towards each other and making each other unhappy. That's, that's the job of the, of a psychoanalytically trained couple therapist, really is to try and help or to try and understand and help the couple to understand what's going on at a, at being an unconscious level, what's driving them for, to do with things in their past, to, to relate in particular kinds of ways.

So in the midst of a session, if, uh, one of the, one of the clients in the couple express something, you know, and maybe you see they're expressing it, you can see what they're trying to express, but [00:57:00] see that it's being expressed in a not so helpful way. Is it part of your job to kind of interpret that, almost try and translate it in a way that is a bit more helpful that the other co the other partner can receive it?

Is that something, uh, that might be involved in a, in a, in a couple session? Yes, but I think that I might try and do it both ways round. This is what I think you are trying to say, but this is the way I think the other partner. This is how you are, you are hearing it, and this is kind of one of the things that's going wrong between you, you know, a, a kind of miscommunication really.

So you're identifying the pattern of miscommunication Yes. Between them, you know. Interesting. And, and the, the last question I want to ask you, and this might be a bit controversial and you may not wish to answer it, which would be fine, is when you, when you're working with couples, are there ever signs, you know, that actually I don't think this relationship has a high likelihood of, of succeeding and it actually, do you [00:58:00] ever come to the conclusion with the people you work with that maybe the best course of action is for this relationship to end?

Actually, yeah, and it's a good question and I'm happy to answer it. It doesn't happen that often that I would make that kind of decision. Couples do break up, but that often they decide to break up. But there have been a few occasions where I feel the relationship is so destructive. And particularly if I feel the children in of that relationship are suffering that, that I might help them to separate, you know, and, and particularly if I feel it's not getting anywhere, the therapy, which might be because there is just a really difficult fit between the couple.

That what they're bringing unconsciously, unconsciously to the relationship is just stirring up the other one too much and they can't, they can't kind of get out of it even without, you know, a lot of help. [00:59:00] So occasionally I think yeah, but the couple actually might need help from the therapist to, to separate.

Yeah. And then maybe, maybe conversely, like what are some of the transformations you've seen in your work? How, like, how couples have been able to turn it around? I think this is what's so amazing about doing couple work actually. I feel it is such a privilege for a couple to. Allow you kind of into their relationship or close to their relationship, however they would see it.

And the fact that so much change and development is possible. In fact, even couples who feel very stuck can change and it's very rewarding to be part of that process. So, yeah. Well, Mary Morgan, thank you so much for spending some time with me. It's been wonderful to be able to learn more about this and would be happy to have you back on at some point in the future.

Okay. Thank you very much, Alex. [01:00:00] Thanks.